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And then the Chinese end up stealing any actual IP that may get the US company ahead by being there.

Also, is it still difficult to bring profits back to the US?

Damn'd if you do, dam'd if you don't.


Why do American companies have to rely on artificial protections like IP in order to compete? Don't forget it's only "stealing" if you're culturally inclined to see IP as actual property, whereas in China the idea has long been that ideas are common good, even predating Marxism.

Not to mention that the US was notorious for IP theft until it would up at the apex of the international order. I presume as China becomes economically dominant it too will gradually shift toward rent seeking and patent enforcement.

So stealing trade secrets is legal in China?

Or do they publish all their IP on a government site for all to see?


They introduced more and more IP laws due to requirements from the WTO[https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/acc_e/completeacc_e.htm...]. At first they didn't prosecute them, then they did but only for foreign companies, and now we're at the stage where there's essentially legal parity.

Basically they had to play along to western rules that were baked into global institutions. But now they're getting to the point that they can start to lead the conversation.

Some further reading [0] could be a book like To Steal Is An Elegant Offense from William P. Alford for a longer history of the relationship to IP within Chinese society.

0: https://www.sup.org/books/asian-studies/steal-book-elegant-o...


> At first they didn't prosecute them, then they did but only for foreign companies

Funny how that works.

> Basically they had to play along to western rules that were baked into global institutions

Like making it mandatory to have a Chinese co-owner own 50% for all businesses created in China? I don't remember seeing that in the WTO rules.

> Some further reading [0] could be a book like To Steal Is An Elegant Offense from William P. Alford for a longer history of the relationship to IP within Chinese society.

Thanks for the book recommendation!


> Like making it mandatory to have a Chinese co-owner own 50% for all businesses created in China?

I'm not sure what this hat to do with IP laws, could you explain?

> Funny how that works.

It seems to make sense to me, but what are you suggesting?


R&D is very expensive and you want some protection for having borne that cost. If a competitor can just swoop in and clone your tech then they’re at an immediate, unfair advantage.

There is a huge difference between "some protection" and blocking the competition for many decades, because an incompetent patent office has approved many exaggerated claims, either about things that are obvious and well known by anyone in the field, but nobody was shameless enough to claim them in a patent before, or else about things that the patent filer is completely unable to do in the present, but they are claimed in the patent for the case when someone else will figure how to do them in the future.

Today the vast majority of patents are not intended for any kind of licensing and they might be even completely useless if licensed, but they are only intended for preventing competition in the market where the patent owner is active.

In order to be useful, a patent system should start to require again that the inventor shows a working prototype that demonstrates all the features claimed in the patent. Moreover, the patents should expire much faster, certainly not later than after 10 years from being issued. Perhaps a longer validity could be accepted for patents owned by individual inventors, but in any case not for the patents assigned to the employers of the inventors, as most patents are today. Also, patent owners should offer "Fair, Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory licensing" (FRAND), otherwise the patent should be invalidated.


Patents aren’t the only means of copying something. I would imagine China has a very sophisticated reverse engineering skill set. Made even easier since pretty much everything is made there so if you want the specs of some component you can just call someone up.

So?

The entire Personal Computer revolution was built from reverse engineering the IBM PC, to start the clone market, which was legal in the US!

On the software side, both Apple and Microsoft were cribbing notes from all sorts of other places.

Remixing and iterating on mostly free ideas is literally how the US used to build things!

People get all huffy and puffy about how the US has stagnated and doesn't build anymore, and in the same breath get pissed that China doesn't kneel to our absurd IP laws!

The US COULD compete if we put building shit ahead of rewarding some shithead capitalist for someone else's work.


I'm not American.

Yet china's economy where IP isn't respected seems to contradict your point. Why doesn't that counterexample make you change your mind on this?

You’re asking why Chinese companies aren’t stealing from each other?

How do you know they’re not?

Nothing happens in China without State approval so maybe the penalties for encroaching on a State backed entity are quite severe?


He's saying the opposite:

1. Chinese companies steal IP from each other all the time.

2. The Chinese economy is growing quickly and Chinese companies are out-innovating their US competitors in many segments.

And the question then is: do strong IP protections actually benefit innovation? Because China seems to be a counterexample.


Except that you have the technical know how to keep advancing, and have already been producing them before they hit market an have been reverse engineered.

Also a lot of research is already done at, or in cooperation of universities, or with research tax breaks.

Let alone the fact that a lot of patents are absolute bullshit. There are patents on UI elements, even black rubber handles with a hand grip. Not white ones, mind you. It’s insanity and stifles innovation.

But if patents and trademarks and copyright are so incredibly important for innovation, I guess that’s why stuff like math and theoretical physics has the lowest amount of innovation, right?


> artificial protections

Everything is an artificial protection by your standard. Laws are written for a reason.

IP is an incentive to develop the IP in the first place. Why would anyone sink huge amounts of money into developing IP if a competitor can just wait and then take it for itself.

And if its such a good idea, why hasn't China been a superpower for so long? America and Europe have been creating and innovating for centuries and millennia. In recent decades China has risen by replicating the West's technology and techniques. Where would China right now be without the West? What is the plan to surpass the West without someone else supplying the IP? Suddenly China is going excel at something at something they haven't done? Japan is instructive because they rose economically in a similar fashion.

A key difference is that the West are liberal democracies and there is strong evidence that freedom and a cosmopolitan society promotes innovation.

Which system is better isn't hard to spot. The naivete of some here is incredible.


> Everything is an artificial protection by your standard. Laws are written for a reason.

No it isn't and this comes across as a straw man. Competing on price, build quality, distribution, aesthetic, service support etc etc are all very real.

> Why would anyone sink huge amounts of money into developing IP if a competitor can just wait and then take it for itself.

How/why did we ever develop anything prior to 1710? And we can add first movers advantage to the list of "real" protections, as well as prestige, marketing etc.

> And if its such a good idea, why hasn't China been a superpower for so long?

Define superpower here? It seems to me that Western powers became global powers first because of colonialism, which A) was driven by materials not by IP, and B) caused direct harm to China.

> China has risen by replicating the West's technology and techniques. Where would China right now be without the West?

Was China in a bad position before the Europeans arrived? Since the Opium Wars they've been forced to play along or risk being wiped out completely. Where could they be without the west indeed.

> Suddenly China is going excel at something at something they haven't done?

Haven't they? It seems that they are very competitive for a host of practical manufacturing reasons that could have been implemented elsewhere if there had been a will or long term vision.

> Japan is instructive because they rose economically in a similar fashion.

Japan was completely neutered and propped up by the US for half a century while they "recovered." It's not a comparable situation.

> there is strong evidence that freedom and a cosmopolitan society promotes innovation.

Is there? Did Britain become a superpower because of its free and cosmopolitan society? Is being a superpower our end goal?

> Which system is better isn't hard to spot. The naivete of some here is incredible.

This isn't an argument at all, just an ad hominem not in keeping with site guidelines. I'm happy to discuss but strawmen and as hominems are very off-putting.


Aren't there laws already against that? It's happened before but is it common, do we have evidence that it is prevalent in Software Engineering?

Do you think SWE at Meta should unionize?

>no law that requires them to accept a union's negotiating demands

And there shouldn't be

>Or prevents them from bringing in scabs if the union chooses to strike without pay.

The company should have this right.


They do have this right. Hiring scabs is legal.

Do you think Salaried software devs should have overtime? Even if paid well (multiples of median salaries across industries).

I’d entrain notions past certain thresholds (60+ hr weeks for months on end seems excessive for instance) should come with certain protections/minimum extras of some sort. A few guardrails, even if only to protection extremes seems pragmatic and not too controversial imo.

I'd like to see the median wage+benefits of the '996' worker vs the median.

I think unions have a place in the lowest margins , but not the 996 tech worker making 2x median salary (my assumption).


Prisoners delima...

You're missing the collective action problem. When 95% of kids have TikTok, telling your kid "no" doesn't just mean having a conversation about social media harms, it means making them a social outcast. Sure, you can be that parent, but you're choosing between your kid's mental health from algorithmic content versus their mental health from social isolation. Individual parents can't solve network effect problems, that's exactly what policy is for. This isn't laziness, it's recognizing that some problems require coordination beyond the family level.

Government already had the control. It's enforcing the will of the people, and the parents DO want this. So I don't see the issue.

Not sure who you have spoken to, but I don't know one single parent who wanted this. In fact most of them have said they will assist their kids to bypass it.

This is a good reason to pay for the nabu casa subscription, it is worth it!

(Not for nest only, just remote access)


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