Hacker Newsnew | past | comments | ask | show | jobs | submitlogin

> The privacy guarantee we are making here is that no one, not even people operating the inference hardware, can see your prompts.

that cannot be met, period. your asssumptions around physical protections are invalid or at least incorrect. It works for Apple (well enough) because of the high trust we place in their own physical controls, and market incentive to protect that at all costs.

> This is how Apple's PCC does it as well [...] and you can audit the code running on those compute machines to check that they aren't doing anything nefarious.

just based on my recollection, and I'm not going to have a new look at it to validate what I'm saying here, but with PCC, no you can't actually do that. With PCC you do get an attestation, but there isn't actually a "confidential compute" aspect where that attestation (that you can trust) proves that is what is running. You have to trust Apple at that lowest layer of the "attestation trust chain".

I feel like with your bold misunderstandings you are really believing your own hype. Apple can do that, sure, but a new challenger cannot. And I mean your web page doesn't even have an "about us" section.



That's a strong claim for not looking into it at all.

From a brief glance at the white paper it looks like they are using TEE, which would mean that the root of trust is the hardware chip vendor (e.g. Intel). Then, it is possible for confidentiality guarantees to work if you can trust the vendor of the software that is running. That's the whole purpose of TEE.


I guess you're unaware that Intel TEE does not provide physical protection. Literally out of scope, at least per runZero CEO (which I didn't verify). But anyway, in scope or not, it doesn't succeed at it.

And I mean I get it. As a not-hardware-manufacturer, they have to have a root of trust they build upon. I gather that no one undertakes something like this without very, very, very high competence and that their part of the stack _is_ secure. But it's built on sand.

I mean it's fine. Everything around us is built that way. Who among us uses a Raptor Talus II and has x-ray'd the PCB? The difference is they are making an overly strong claim.


It doesn’t matter either way. Intel is an American company as well, and thus unsuitable as a trust root.


A company of what country would you prefer?

Everyone likes to dunk on the US, but I doubt you could provide a single example of a country that is certainly a better alternative (to be clear I believe many of the west up in the same boat).


A European one. Pulling the kind of tricks the NSA does is considerably harder if you don’t have a secret court with secret orders.


You might want to look into what GCHQ, DGSE, and BND (as examples) actually do. Europe is not some surveillance-free zone.


> Intel is an American company

Literally.


If you’re moving the goalposts from tech implementation to political vibes, it’s just more post-fact nabobism.


"SSL added and removed here :-)"

It’s not about vibes, but clear proof of a strategy to undermine global information security. Is anyone suppose to believe they don’t do that anymore?


Apple actually attests to signatures of every single binary they install on their machines, before soft booting into a mode where no further executables can be installed: https://security.apple.com/documentation/private-cloud-compu...

We don't _quite_ have the funding to build out our own custom OS to match that level of attestation, so we settled for attesting to a hash of every file on the booted VM instead.


> Apple actually attests to signatures

But (based on light reading, forgive errors) the only way to attest them is to ask _Apple_! It reminds me what i call e2e2e encryption. iMessage is secure e2e but you have to trust that Apple is sending you the correct keys. (There's some recent update, maybe 1-2 years old, where you can verify the other party's keys in person I think? But it's closed software, you _still_ have to trust that what you're being shown is something that isn't a coordinated deception.)

Apple claims to operate the infrastructure securely, and while I believe they would never destroy their business by not operating as rigorously as they claim, OTOH they gave all the data to China for Chinese users, so YMMV. And their OS spams me with ads for their services. I absolutely hate that.

Again, anyway, I am comfortable putting my trust in Apple. My data aren't state secrets. But I wouldn't be putting my trust in random cloud operator based on your known-invalid claim of physical protection. Not if the whole point is to protect against an untrustworthy operator. I would much sooner trust a nitro enclave.


You should read the PCC paper: https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

You are not in fact trusting Apple at all. You are trusting some limited number of independent security researchers, which is not perfect, but the system is very carefully designed to give Apple themselves no avenue to exploit without detection.


> OTOH they gave all the data to China for Chinese users, so YMMV

This is true for the same reason that American data is in the US. China is frequently a normal and competent country and has data privacy laws too.




Guidelines | FAQ | Lists | API | Security | Legal | Apply to YC | Contact

Search: