The problem with suicidal depression is that if someone has created the thought pattern that death is best, then removing the symptoms of depression (lethargy, lack of energy, no willpower) now gives the person the ability to actually follow through with the act.
Medications almost always target symptoms and never address root causes.
This is a good thing to know, but should also be noted that the same thing can happen with simply naturally recovering from a depressive episode.
The phenomenon should not be considered a reason to not medicate (which I don’t think you are implying, but some may take that as the conclusion). Instead it’s definitely something important to explicitly make people aware of.
Depression or the feeling so much mental agony that the idea of escaping with death becomes comforting, is a signal that something is wrong.
Realizing this has been important with weathering my own occasional dealings with severe[0]depression, once I realize “something is wrong”, I can start the annoyingly slow process of trial and error making changes to correct things. This turns depression from “how reality is” into “this is just feedback on my body’s state”. It turns things getting worse into either a “this is either a transient state or the wrong solution”.
[0] Which I define as the point where any passive ideation (fantasies of dying) starts to enter the gradient of becoming involuntary. As opposed to regular negative thoughts which can (and should) be brushed away as easily as a fly landing on me. Curiously, once I noticed it also affected my ability to experience color. While I could technically see colors, it was like have a mental partial greyscale filter because there was no beauty in it, color was just a meaningless detail.
A sudden improvement in mood is one of the key warning signs for suicide. Often it's genuinely just a sudden improvement, but sometimes it is a byproduct of the relief people experience when they commit to ending their life. If you know someone who is severely depressed, you should watch them very carefully if they suddenly seem carefree.
>once I noticed it also affected my ability to experience color
A small amount of evidence does support the notion that depressed people literally see the world as being less vibrant.
This is what my psychiatrist more or less warned me about when I went on medication; that a lot of people who are suicidal lack the energy and ability to plan their suicide, and medications can sometimes undo those particular symptoms and people manage to end themselves.
I'm not sure what kinds of studies have been done about it, but I've had a few therapists same similar ideas. If it's not a studied phenomenon, then it has folks that believe it exists.
I'd like to make the point that even if this does occur, it doesn't mean, "therefore this medication shouldn't be used/is worse than doing nothing," just that awareness and caution is needed.
I went through a frankly terrible few months on my current meds because they removed the emotional numbness before removing the bad feelings. However, once that was over they effectively gave me my life back after 10+ years of continual exhaustion and brain fog.
This theory is a science-free zone. It seems far more likely that the drug induced sudden, overwhelming suicidal thoughts than someone said "I feel the best I've ever felt and life is looking up. I think I'll kill myself and make all the good feelings go away".
Furthermore, if the latter were true, it would be an indication that depression was a symptom rather than a cause and the psychiatrist misdiagnosed and improperly treated the patient.
EDIT - I ask because the only results I get when searching are a Harvard article debunking it. I'd rather hear the opinion of someone that actually believes in it before I read about why it's all malarky. I believe in arguing against the best version of someones argument.
It was just the best “every man” link I could provide for understanding how efficacy of toxin-clearing (toxicity) could be related to depression, other struggles with homeostasis.
I’m not quite following the previous conversation here, but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing.
I’m not sure if it has a technical name or if it’s been rigorously studied, but it’s a common observation which even I’ve seen (and reported to growers I work for).
> but your comment brings to mind that one theory of a possible “function” of depression, is as a “sickness behavior” to help isolate a sick animal from others to protect the group. A sheep or cow getting sick and going off on its own is a common thing
It's one explanation of the phenomenon. I'm not remotely convinced by it, but that doesn't mean I think it's untrue.
What I do think we can conclude is that we have no evidence depression is caused by infection. (Singularly and universally, as OP implies.) With higher confidence I believe I can conclude that interrogating chatbots designed to keep your attention is a poor way to resolve this.
> we have no evidence depression is caused by infection
Besides talking to patients and reading case files.
You can wait another decade or three for someone to spend the money on a specific study that meets your individual criteria (I'm sure very high), for doing obvious things like:
1.) Treating known infections, testing for others,
and
2.) Addressing nutritional gaps, as well as tracking circadian/endocrine, and nervous symptoms (which often intertwine with depression symptoms!)
but I will not wait.
I'd prefer to no longer be depressed, and/or unwell.
So I'll do the obvious things – even if they're not obvious to you, yet.
Stopping back in, because I unironically came across someone's almost-surely AI assisted summary that does a better job than I have summarizing the processes being discussed:
==
===
Why the Sick Get Sicker
Most people think illness progresses because of pathogens, toxins, or genetics — but the deeper truth is that tension, stress, and breathing patterns control the trajectory of health more than anything else.
When the body is stressed, the breath changes.
When the breath changes, the lymph stagnates.
When the lymph stagnates, toxins accumulate.
When toxins accumulate, inflammation accelerates.
And that is how sick becomes sicker.
Here’s the breakdown:
1. Stress Immediately Changes Your Breathing Pattern
When the nervous system senses stress — emotional, physical, mental, or energetic — breathing becomes:
• shallow
• rapid
• high in the chest
• tight in the ribs
• limited in diaphragm expansion
This cuts oxygen supply, raises cortisol, and signals the body to brace.
Bracing = stagnation.
2. Your Breath Controls Your Lymphatic System
The lymphatic system is the body’s drainage system, and it has no pump of its own.
It relies entirely on:
• diaphragmatic breathing
• muscle movement
• fascia softness
• a calm nervous system
Shallow breathing = no diaphragm movement.
No diaphragm movement = lymph stagnation.
When lymph stagnates:
• waste can’t drain
• toxins recirculate
• inflammation builds
• swelling increases
• the immune system gets overwhelmed
This is why people in long-term stress decline rapidly.
You've contributed nothing curious to this thread whatsoever, just threw some doubt in, then buggered off during the replies – more or less communicating "stuff I can't directly or completely refute is AI slop".
That's....disappointing.
I saw this textpost made by someone else, and literally thought of you, JumpCrisscross.
But is the only true cure to the suffering. We’d have to undergo a massive reorganization of society (and upset a few hefty profit margins) to prioritize that, so we settle for the messy symptom management we have.
That story doesn’t work for people with depression who otherwise have very good lives.
I grew up in a stable household with a loving family and both parents present and supportive. I’ve never had financial hardship, either as a kid depending on my parents to provide or as an adult providing for myself and family. I did very well in school, had plenty of friends, never had enemies, never got bullied or even talked bad about in social circles (so far as I know…). I have no traumatic memories.
I could go on and on, but despite having a virtually perfect life on paper, I have always struggled with depression and suicidal ideation. It wasn’t until my wife sat down and forced me to talk to a psychiatrist and start medication that those problems actually largely went away.
In other words, I don’t think there’s a metaphorical “cow” that could have helped me. It’s annoying we don’t understand what causes depression or how antidepressants help, and their side effects suck. But for some of us, it’s literally life saving in a way nothing else has ever been.
First of all, I want to write that I am glad you found something that worked so that you are able to remain here with us.
Though, I am curious about the, "otherwise have very good lives" part.
Whose definition are you using? It seems the criteria you laid out fits a "very good life" in a sociological sense -- very important, sure. You could very well have the same definition, and perhaps that is what I am trying to ask. Would you say you were satisfied in life? Despite having a good upbringing, were you (prior to medication) content or happy?
I am by no means trying to change your opinion nor invalidate your experiences. I just struggle to understand how that can be true.
As someone that has suffered with deep depressive bouts many times over, I just cannot subscribe to the idea that depression is inherently some sort of disorder of the brain. In fact, I am in the midst of another bout now. One that's lasted about 3 or so years.
To me, I have always considered emotions/states like depression and anxiety to be signals. A warning that something in one's current environment is wrong -- even if consciously not known or difficult to observe. And if anyone is curious, I have analyzed this for myself, and I believe the etiology of my issues are directly linked to my circumstances/environment.
> I don’t think there’s a metaphorical “cow” that could have helped me.
The smart-ass in me can't help but suggest that maybe medication was your cow?
To be honest, I've never really thought about it... I suppose I mean in both a sociological and self fulfillment way.
> Would you say you were satisfied in life? Despite having a good upbringing, were you (prior to medication) content or happy?
I would say "yes" overall. Aside from the depression (typically manifesting as a week or two of me emotionally spiraling down to deep dark places every month or so), I was very happy and satisfied. That's what makes the depression so annoying for me. It makes no sense compared to my other aspects of life.
> In fact, I am in the midst of another bout now. One that's lasted about 3 or so years.
*fist bump*
> To me, I have always considered emotions/states like depression and anxiety to be signals. A warning that something in one's current environment is wrong -- even if consciously not known or difficult to observe. And if anyone is curious, I have analyzed this for myself, and I believe the etiology of my issues are directly linked to my circumstances/environment.
I think that's a great hypothesis so long as it's not a blanket applied to everyone (which I don't think you're doing, to be clear; I mention this only because it is what motivated my original response to the other commenter).
I don't want to go into private details of family members without their permission, but I will say that given the pervasive depression in my family and mental health issues like schizophrenia and bipolar disorders (neither of which I have, thank goodness), I feel like there's something biologically... wrong (for lack of a better word?)... with us, particularly since you can easily trace this through my mother's side.
> The smart-ass in me can't help but suggest that maybe medication was your cow?
Ha fair. I interpreted the story to be about depression being a symptom of your situation (job, health, etc.) and if you just fixed that then there's no need for medication. That definitely makes sense in some (many? most?) situations. But not all, unfortunately.
Take my baseless speculation for what it's worth, but could it be that you were depressed because your life was too easy? We humans are meant to struggle through adversity. Can you really appreciate your financial security if you've never faced financial insecurity, or appreciate companionship if you've never experienced loneliness?
It’s a reasonable question but I doubt it. We weren’t affluent at all and I worked my butt off for everything. And that’s good, because I agree that if things are too easy it turns into a curse.
> I don’t think there’s a metaphorical “cow” that could have helped me.
The medication is the cow for you. In this story your support system figured out what would work best for you, which was medication, and facilitated that.
It’s a story about a doctor that serves patients in rural Cambodia. Help from the local community would look different in Borey Peng Huoth, for example.
The story in the article that is being discussed here does not say that the doctor was explicitly not a member of the community that he served. You would have to just sort of make that part up and then come up with an explanation for how the doctor even knows that story if he wasn’t part of that community.
The doctor in the story exists in pretty recent history, which you would call modernity. If for some reason you’re using “modernity” as a way to say “systemic alienation of the individual” rather than “modernity” meaning “happening in the modern world” then yes, by your definition of that word, it is indeed a story about “modernity” being to blame for poor treatment for depression.
Part of the diagnosis procedure for major depressive disorder is ruling out physical conditions that can cause similar symptoms. No one is going to miss that the guy had his leg blown off.
I mean sometimes. For me it was multivariate for sure. Biggest problem - wife and kid. Helped a ton. My specific wife, really. I doubt someone else would have helped me. I had a lot of self defeating thought patterns she helped me fix.
My understanding is that the optimal scenario is taking an SSRI in combination with therapy. The SSRI adds flexibility for the brain to respond to therapy and envisage new possibilities. If you don't include therapy, you've just established a new baseline to habituate to.
This is true overall, but it only works for a limited set of patients. It's pretty likely that what we're calling depression is a different set of diseases that manifest with common symptoms, and SSRIs + therapy work wonders for some variants, but not others.
In fact, we actually do know this to be the case already: bipolar disorder also manifests with the same symptoms as depression for some time, and SSRIs + therapy are definitely not enough to treat bipolar disorder. Most likely there are other similar diseases that present with depressive symptoms that we have yet to identify distinctly and don't know how to treat effectively.
Yup. Depression medication can significantly help the emotional symptoms, but that takes longer to be effective.
I’m bipolar and a lot of the medication I take does not become fully effective for months. For me, my medication slowly became more effective over years as my brain no longer had to compensate for hardware problems.
Medications almost always target symptoms and never address root causes.